Curse

lasker wavingtrider · Nov 29, 2007, 12:37 AM // 00:37

I see a few rt/n characters online lately. Just wondering if there is any build that allows them to be decent minion masters. Besides the Minion Bomber, can they make a good straight MM?

Bargamer · Nov 29, 2007, 02:02 AM // 02:02

IMHO, no. Boon of Creation and Animate Bone Minion's synergy is a gimmick. Other than giving the Flesh Golem more health, Spirit's Gift, and Explosive Growth, pretty much nothing else in Spawning Power can offer anything to all of the other Animate spells. Except for these spells, having higher-level minions is better than having more health for them. Without the two-for-one punch of Animate Bone Minions, (and possibly Animate Shambling Horror and Jagged Bones,) Boon of Creation cannot possibly keep up with the high Energy requirements of Animating and maintaining the minion's health, and the Ritualist has no response for the Necro's Bloodstained Insignia advantage.

If you don't know anything else about Ritualists, then know that they are intended to be hybrids, whether of classes or concepts. They can do several things pretty well, to make up for the Core Profession's near-monopoly on a single concept at a time. So while the Rit/N cannot be as good of a straight-MM as a Necromancer, they are better at blowing stuff up, dropping hexes and conditions, keeping themselves alive, and occasionally healing the party, all at the same time.

Put both a Necro-main and a Rit/N Minion Bomber into Vizunah Square, and you got yourself the makings of a Masters run. I always run with 2 Rit/N though, just for fun. :-D

street peddler · Nov 29, 2007, 02:03 AM // 02:03

they can for minion bombing

mazik · Dec 10, 2007, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bargamer

IMHO, no. Boon of Creation and Animate Bone Minion's synergy is a gimmick.

How is it a gimmick? The skill works exactly how it is supposed to. It's not a gimmick, it's using a skill effectively for the means it was designed for.

Kwan Xi · Dec 11, 2007, 02:19 AM // 02:19

My Personal Experience I think Necros are the superior MM, I played with a MM Rit concept and it was not as good as a Necro, It can be done but I find Soul Reaping to be a big part of the MM Process because I consider bone fiends a staple for MMs, and it could be difficult to raise multiple minions without decent soul reaping.

I actually find Spirit Spamming more useful as a Rit then MM or Minon Bombing but thats just me.

Shadowmere · Dec 11, 2007, 06:32 AM // 06:32

straight up rit MM can work, not as effectively as a stright necro mind you but it still works fairly well in nm pve. despite being lower level most rit spawned minions are a fair bit more resilient than their necro counterparts. So all in all they have an advantage in tanking but otherwise necro minions have the edge.

Draginvry · Dec 11, 2007, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Rit minions have a lot of staying power because they have a lot more health. With the right skills, you can keep them alive easier.

However, they will be doing far less damage than their necro counterparts. And, there will be less of them. There isn't any real reason to make a Rit primary MM. If you want to summon you are better off with a trick build like this:

[skill]animate bone minions[/skill][skill]animate shambling horror[/skill][skill]death nova[/skill][skill]life[/skill][skill]mend body and soul[/skill][skill]boon of creation[/skill][skill]spirit's gift[/skill][skill]explosive growth[/skill]

Take that in a mission with large mobs and watch the fun.

But as far as just plain minions, the necro will always be stronger. You'll have to start abusing some of those spawning power skills if you want to be anything other than a bomber. The other obvious problem with Rit MM is energy management. There higher the cost of minions, the harder it is to get a lot of them. That's why rit summoners almost never use Bone Fiends. They just don't have the energy pool of a necro.

Sir Pandra Pierva · Dec 11, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

besides minion bomber rit mms are meh

Draginvry · Dec 11, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Pandra Pierva

besides minion bomber rit mms are meh

Yeah. If you aren't abusing Spirit's Gift, Explosive Growth, or Death Nova, then there's a very good chance you should have just made a necro.

Dr Strangelove · Dec 12, 2007, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draginvry

Yeah. If you aren't abusing Spirit's Gift, Explosive Growth, or Death Nova, then there's a very good chance you should have just made a necro.

None of which are all that powerful. A jagged bones guy with 16 death magic is far more interesting as a bomber, although granted humans can't run it very well.

Necros are easily superior minion masters in every way. However, the template is so strong in PvE that it'll still work fine with a slightly gimped rit.

Shadowmere · Dec 12, 2007, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Necros are easily superior minion masters in every way. However, the template is so strong in PvE that it'll still work fine with a slightly gimped rit.

Right on, MM-ing even a toned down rit version is still a very potent tactic in the majority of PvE.

Minions pwn PvE

zwei2stein · Dec 12, 2007, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

None of which are all that powerful. A jagged bones guy with 16 death magic is far more interesting as a bomber, although granted humans can't run it very well.

Necros are easily superior minion masters in every way. However, the template is so strong in PvE that it'll still work fine with a slightly gimped rit.

No, not really. necro MM bomber does not heal and cleanse conditions from your frontline, nor does he have double bomb (on creation, on death) ... etc. 4 more dm is meaningless when you bomb overall more.

Bargamer · Dec 12, 2007, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Necro-mains have the edge on DPS and Energy pool, this is true. But in overall DOT and AOE, I believe Rits are superior. I believe the tanking argument is offset by the fact that you are blowing them up whenever you can. And taking a Necro-main Hero with Death Nova/Jagged Bones solves the minion targeting problem nicely, and gives the Rit room for other skills.

Dr. Strange: Necros are not superior in every way. They used to be, but SR/Death nerfs have narrowed the gap. I will retreat to a previous argument: Why fight over who is the better MM, when you can have both in the same party, and they help each other?

Zwei2stein: I believe you mean 4 more levels?

Draginvry · Dec 13, 2007, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bargamer

Why fight over who is the better MM, when you can have both in the same party, and they help each other?

If you can manage that, you will be unstoppable. I've dual MM'd with some people before, and having a rit bomber with an MM is even better if they both know what they are doing.

Theo Godscythe · Dec 13, 2007, 01:44 PM // 13:44

My opinion, the only reason they Nerfed Death Magic(minion limit) was becasue Ritualists would have been able to create bigger/longer lasting armies.

MywayFtw · Dec 13, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theo Godscythe

My opinion, the only reason they Nerfed Death Magic(minion limit) was becasue Ritualists would have been able to create bigger/longer lasting armies.

True, but wasnt that done a while before Factions?

Bargamer · Dec 13, 2007, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Um... Wrong, Theo. The reason they nerfed Death Magic is because they wanted to nerfbat 2-man (and sometimes 1-man) Sorrow's Furnace runs, and because they wanted to push players more towards skill over build, and playing more cooperatively. (Don't have an interview link handy, sorry.)

I'm pretty sure that the popularity of the Rit/N took them pretty much by surprise ever since the Factions Preview Event. To say that Rits stole minions from Necros is about as plausible as saying Assassins stole the Warrior's sharp-pointy-object-swinging monopoly, and so they nerfed Warrior's muscles to bring them in line. As you can see here, that is not true: http://www.guildwars.com/support/gam...ve-2006-04.php

The Necro was horribly imbalanced, and it was a good move to nerf Death Magic and Soul Reaping. Not to the extent they have now, but hey, who hasn't wanted to go "Office Space" on something broken? Anet just got a bit over-excited, that's all.

Pyro maniac · Dec 13, 2007, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bargamer

Um... Wrong, Theo. The reason they nerfed Death Magic is because they wanted to nerfbat 2-man (and sometimes 1-man) Sorrow's Furnace runs, and because they wanted to push players more towards skill over build, and playing more cooperatively. (Don't have an interview link handy, sorry.)

I'm pretty sure that the popularity of the Rit/N took them pretty much by surprise ever since the Factions Preview Event. To say that Rits stole minions from Necros is about as plausible as saying Assassins stole the Warrior's sharp-pointy-object-swinging monopoly, and so they nerfed Warrior's muscles to bring them in line. As you can see here, that is not true: http://www.guildwars.com/support/gam...ve-2006-04.php

The Necro was horribly imbalanced, and it was a good move to nerf Death Magic and Soul Reaping. Not to the extent they have now, but hey, who hasn't wanted to go "Office Space" on something broken? Anet just got a bit over-excited, that's all.

I tought they introduced the cap because of alliance battles ..

anyway, it can be fun. MM in Hard Mode are actually just because of spreading the death nova blasts. They can't 'tank' like they can in normal mode.
Using a rit, it just adds another way to spread damage.

as elite, I prefer Jagged Bones

Bargamer · Dec 13, 2007, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Minion Cap because of AB? Wouldn't be a bad reason, but eh. Like I said, I don't have interview links handy, and am too lazy to dig through 1.5-year-old archives for them. XDDD

I agree, minions in HM just get shredded like wet tissues. Jagged Bones with the old recharge was awesome, I want it back now, lol. Now I just run with no elite, and take Necrosis+Putrid Bile. Mmmmm... MOAR 'SPLODE PLZ! <3

defect · Dec 13, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Rit = ooodles of pretty damage through bombing
Necro = more stability(Energy management,more minions etc)

So,kind of depends on the situation.If the area is filled with enemies all bunched together in groups,go Rit.If your in an area where the baddies actually have brains and are a bit more spread out,go necro.